Organic farmer Jay Martin on CSA (transcript)

Transcribed by Brian Magee

Brian Magee: This is Brian Magee for Global Public Media on the 15th of January, 2008. I'm speaking with Jay Martin of Provident Organic Farm, a CSA on Maryland's Eastern Shore. Jay started Provident Organic Farm in 2001, but he has been an organic grower since 1973 in New York and Maryland. He has also been heavily involved in the Lower Eastern Shore Sustainable Organic Network, or LESSON, which is a developing network of farms involved not only in CSAs, but also with farmer's markets restaurants and retailers. Jay's web site can be found at providentfarm.com, the LESSON web site is located at livingontheveg.org.

First I want to outline where we are. We are on what is known locally as the Delmarva peninsula. It encompasses all of Maryland's Eastern Shore, along with the state of Delaware and two Virginia counties and separates the Atlantic Ocean and Chesapeake Bay. The name Delmarva was created from portions of the names Delaware, Maryland and Virginia.

Jay, thanks for sharing your time and knowledge today.

Jay Martin: That's fine.

BM: Community supported agriculture farms, or CSAs, can run on a set of differing variables, including types of food, method of distribution, and member participation. Outline for us a little bit first what a CSA is, and then how Provident Organic Farm works and how the LESSON organization is involved in that.

JM: CSA farms are... there's probably as many different models as there are farms. What I call a pure CSA is where a consumer group will actually hire a farm/farmer and contract with that farmer for everything he can produce on that farm. And in return for that they will provide him with a living salary, housing, benefits, the whole package. But everything that's produced on that farm goes to that membership. Other CSA farms, I guess you would call them hybrids, where it's part of a mixed marketing strategy, the CSA is a portion of, or provides a portion of, what the farm grows, to the members where that farm may also sell in farmer's markets or to retailers, might even be a large scale wholesaler. And in most cases those are considered subscription CSAs, where not everything that's grown on the farm does not go to the CSA members.

So, we would fall into the second category because we also market at farmer's markets and a couple of retail outlets and restaurants. So CSA covers a wide variety of farms. In most cases it's vegetables, but CSA farms also provide meat, eggs, dairy products, and that's what we're working on through LESSON is to try to bring in other products from other farms, because this farm, Provident, is not able to supply all of that to our members. So we're seeking other farmers to provide other products to our members. And then, beyond, also we could sell on farmer's markets and to the retailers also.

BM: So you concentrate mainly on vegetables here, at Provident?

JM: That's what we do here, yes.

BM: Does the size of the farm have anything to do with whether its a hybrid or whether it just does another type?

JM: Not necessarily. I would say that the purse CSAs are probably smaller.

BM: Would it have to do with the amount of membership you can get, possibly, that takes it in that direction?

JM: Well, I think a large... In Maryland there's a farm named One Straw Farm, some very good friends of ours, Drew and Joan Norman, I think they're up around 850 CSA members. But that CSA, their CSA, probably amounts to about one-third of what they produce. They wholesale, the do farmer's markets... It's good for any farm to have not only a diversified cropping system, but a diversified marketing system I think is good for any farm.

BM: People who join one join another CSA? Do they join more than one to get the products they can't get from one from another if they do different items?

JM: That may be so. I think usually in cases like that it ends up being a cooperative effort of farmers working together.

BM: Is that something that LESSON does or is that something that is done on their own?

JM: LESSON is trying to coordinate that now. I'm sure that we have members who, they get our vegetables, and then at farmer's markets there's a woman who does raw milk cheese that sets up right next to me at one of the markets and I know they buy cheese from her. And then there's a farm in Delaware that does grass-fed beef, and I know they get their beef there. So, most of the people that come to a CSA... People come to CSAs for a multitude of reasons. But if they do they'll seek products beyond what that CSA is able to provide. And we're aware of that, and, again, that's why LESSON has hired me to try to coordinate that with other farmers. That's where my focus is going now. I'm actually cutting back on what I'm growing here because I've identified a couple of other vegetable farmers who are interested in growing for the CSA. So, between the three of us this year we'll grow most of what the CSA's vegetable needs are, and I'll put more of my time and effort into seeking out other products for the members.

BM: When you started in 2001what was the reason to getting into it, to starting a CSA farm?

JM: Prior to that I had been in the vegetable transplant business. I started Silver Seed Greenhouses, which my wife and I worked there while we raised our kids. It was right in the back yard and we grew from one greenhouse when we started and worked our way up to six. For 16 years we grew organic vegetable transplants, shipped throughout the country, mostly in the mid-Atlantic region. And we had done that since '85 and in 2000 I decided I wanted to get out of that business and sold it to start this. But in the last, say, 8 or 10 years while we were doing Silver Seed Greenhouses I had been contacted by CSAs—farms—to custom grow their transplants for them and we did that for a number of CSAs and I saw their success, in that they paid their bills; that was pretty important. In the CSA model the farmer is guaranteed at least a percentage of his income by the CSA. The members buy in and pay for their share up front. So these CSA farms were able to buy their transplants from us and pay for them up front, which was excellent for me.

BM: Is that a big deal, that you get your money up front with a CSA vs. other types of farming?

JM: Absolutely. Anybody would know, ant time you don't have to borrow money, you're making money. Saving money and making money are the same thing. So to not have to go to any financial institution to provide you with startup costs, it's a huge deal. I think I spend probably 60-65% of my expenses of the year happen before May.

BM: Is that one of the things that draws people in to do CSA farming?

JM: I think so. I think from the farmer's perspective, that's a huge factor for the farmer. Most CSAs are farmer-driven, at this point. There are some member-driven CSAs where a group of consumers seek out a farmer, but for the most part they're farmer-driven because the farmer recognizes the potential for a guaranteed income.

BM: Is there any downside to having a CSA farm and how do you address those, if there is any?

JM: I've spoken with other CSA farmers about this. I take it as a huge responsibility to provide food for, in our case, 140/150 families. And that can become burdensome, I think. Whereas, if you market to a farmer's market, if you lose a crop you just haven't got it. And there's a financial loss, obviously. But, there's not the stress of not having provided your members, your families, with what you had hoped to be able to do. I think some farmers may not be as sensitive to that as others, but that can become burdensome, that level of responsibility to your families.

BM: Does anybody ever complain that they don't' get enough, or they don't get what they expected?

JM: Actually, the biggest complaint you hear from the CSA members is that it's too much food. That's hard for me to imagine, but, I've never really gotten more than a few complaints that it wasn't enough food. The CSA season, our season, runs a total of 30 weeks. And we have season extension ability with passive solar greenhouse and cold frames, so we can do some things early in the spring and then extend our season late into the fall, so we have a fairly long season.

One of the things that members have to understand is that, say, for instance, in our case it's $575 for the season, which averages out to about $23 a week. What one of the things the farmer has to make sure the membership understands is that those first, say, five or six shares may not be worth $23, and the last five or six shares may not be worth, at face value, they may not be worth $23. But there may be some shares in the middle of the summer that are worth $40 or $45. I've tracked this, not every year, but I've tracked it in most of the years, and typically it works out to be where the members, unless there's drought or other weather-related incidents like that that cut your yields; or insect problems—major insect problems—that would cut yields. But on the average year, if there is such a thing, the members get better than dollar value.

BM: Do they get any say in what you grow for them?

JM: We do a survey. We try to do it every year. It doesn't always happen, or we don't get enough results to make it significant. But we've tried to make choices within particular categories. Say, for instance, like with beans. We'll grow three or four different types of beans all through the bean season and be able to offer the members a choice of beans. But we tell them “you're getting two pounds of beans, make your choice.” And we do that with cabbages, we do that with some of the other crops, too.

But typically the farmer figures out what he's able to grow and then how much of it he can grow. But we do a drop-add every year; like to add some new crops to have people try out, and some of the less popular crops we'll drop. Kolroby, we grew kolroby for three years and the first year it was very well accepted. And then it appears they've gotten tired of it after three years, so we've dropped kolroby. Leeks were an interesting crop. A lot of the people had never used leeks. And they really got excited over them and that's one of the big items now. They want more leeks, more leeks. Heirloom tomatoes: very few people had experienced heirloom tomatoes when we first started offering them. I don't think you can ever give the people too many tomatoes. But they would love to have any many heirloom tomatoes as we could possibly grow.

BM: Do you have any response or interest from restaurants picking up and becoming members?

JM: I see that as a growing market now. Restaurants are starting to get on the so-called “local” bandwagon. And the difficulty with marketing to restaurants is that they have to have consistency and reliability and that's difficult for one farm to do, unless their focus is on restaurants. In our case it's not. And then that is also another reason for creating the network of farms, is to provide restaurants with consistency and reliability. But we're seeing more interest with restaurants now.

BM: Are there CSAs that concentrate just on the restaurant business? Is that what you're saying—there are some that do that, or focus on that more?

JM: No. Well, I don't think so. There are produce farms that would focus on restaurants. CSAs typically are focused on member families.

BM: Now there was a study back in 2004 that you were nice to show me before we started here that shows a survey was done of CSA, or organic farmers, actually, and, of course the population that buy from organic farmers. And the population seems to want to be able to buy their organic goods from their regular grocery outlets. But farmers seem to want to be able to sell them more through CSAs and farmer's markets. With that sort of disconnect between what they say they want and what the farmers say they want, how do you bring that together to get the stuff to the people who actually want it without much trouble?

JM: Well, you said disconnect. The survey said that people would like to get their local organic produce in their local chain supermarket. To me that's an oxymoron because in that case to access your local organic produce in a supermarket involves more food miles, because that food is grown by the farmer, shipped to the distribution warehouse—which could be hundreds of miles away—it involves more packaging in order to do that, and then is sent back to the local supermarket in this styrofoam boat wrapped in plastic and the consumer then purchases it at the supermarket. To me that's adding food miles, additional packaging that's totally unnecessary.

I know that in the marketplace we all have to satisfy the market demand. But on the other side of that coin I think we need to educate the public, too, which CSA farms strive to do that. We do, and I think most that I'm familiar with do. You strive to educate your customer base through a newsletter. We put out a newsletter every week to the members. But the education is crucial to that. So, my answer to that would be to rather than satisfy the market and give the people what they want, shipping their food to a distribution center and then back to a supermarket so they can buy it, I would sooner educate them about the additional food miles, the additional packaging, and why they shouldn't. Rather than going to the supermarket, find their food in a farmer's market outlet, join a CSA, which reduces the food miles, reduces the packaging, puts more income in the farmer's markets, supports the local economy, all those benefits that come through that education.

BM: Is that something that LESSON is working on, or you're working on with them?

JM: Yeah. The farm works on that, the group of farmers work on that, and LESSON is working on that. We do most of our distributions... actually, this year we're doing all of our distributions in farmer's markets. And I originally started recruiting in a farmer's market, when we first started the CSA. And it's an excellent recruitment location. You already have that teachable moment, so to speak, where someone's shopping in a farmer's market and you explain to them what the CSA is all about, and you can recruit members. It's the best way I've found to recruit members.

BM: What do the retailers say when you bring this up to them? Can you deliver directly to their stores without going through their distribution? Have they balked at that completely?

JM: I've never discussed that with any chain. The local retailers, we actually have not—as a group, the involved farmers—have not made contact with any of the small retail outlets, yet that's what we're looking at this year is to try to do that. But I think that the retail outlets—most of them are small grocery stores—are interested in purchasing locally.

BM: You talked about miles. You, on your web site, you've got an interesting quote listed there that says that “food as traveled an average of 1500 miles from farm gate to dinner plate,” and “by the time it reaches the consumer up to 75% of the nutritional value is gone.” Is that one of the reasons that you got into CSAs, to start a CSA, was to cut down on those food miles?

JM: That may not have been the first and foremost reason. I saw CSAs as an excellent situation for a farmer and as a way to involved people to make them understand and take responsibility for their food supply. And that's what I felt we have to do. We've abdicated the responsibility of growing our food to major corporations. And I've said this to people—I can get somewhat harsh sometimes—but when I discuss this with people I say, well, go back in time and think about the relationship you had with the first person who fed you and who that person is/was. And now imaging yourself establishing that type of relationship with a corporation. And it's very unlikely that you will do that.

BM: Well, of course.

JM: And that's essentially what we've done. We have abdicated not only our right to control over our food supply, but our responsibility of control over our food supply to corporations.

BM: Yeah, you've mentioned... there's a text of a speech on your web site that you gave in 2005 that talks about those kinds of those things, too, where you've got a quote on there, too, says we've lost “our reverence for Creation. I have come to the conclusion that we were not kicked out of the Garden. We are still in the Garden, but we are operating on the wrong principles.” And you blame that on “the scientific revolution,” at least to some degree. Can you talk about that a little bit more?

JM: Well, I've been trying to answer that question as to why is it we've enabled this to happen. And so, as I was telling you before we started the interview about taking some classes at the local university, Salisbury University. And I took some classes at SU, anthropology and mythology and some other courses, to try to answer that question. And in that talk I gave at the Assateague Coastal Trust in 2005, I offered some of the answers that I had come up with. And one of them is we no longer have a reverence for Creation, and in lacking that reverence we just don't seem to care any more. And we need to reestablish that reverential relationship with Creation. That's a part of it. There's a number of reasons. And I blame it on the fathers of the scientific revolution rather than Eve. Natural resources became...

BM: Was it because they distanced us from natural resources? Is that what you're getting at?

JM: Yeah. I can't remember the exact quote now, but I know there's a native American saying that addresses that, about how native Americans looked at the resources as their brothers, whereas we look at natural resources as just a means to an end. And that's the lack of reverence. We're just so busy. William McDonough in a speech... I refer to William McDonough frequently because I think he's something of a Leonardo da Vinci for our time. He gave the keynote address at the Pennsylvania Association for Sustainable Agriculture conference, I think it was in '99. In that keynote address he said that we live lives of timeful mindlessness, where we should be living lives of timeless mindfulness. And it's an interesting play on words if you stop to think about that for a moment. We are living lives of timeful mindlessness. We're too busy, we're not thinking about the implications of our actions, the long-term problems that it may create; whereas, if we slowed ourselves down, and lived lives of timeless mindfulness we might be able to do a little better by Creation.

BM: Do CSAs do that? I guess they obviously do because people are directly contacting you, the grower, like you were talking about before, and it bring them closer to Creation, in your words.

JM: Well, I think that's a portion of it. People, like I said before, people come to CSAs for a variety of reasons. We probably have a higher percentage of vegetarians than what you would see in the overall population as members. Very often women with young children, they're concerned, they may read an article somewhere about the danger of this particular food or that particular food, and the problems that it may create in their young children. I think that's a very strong segment of CSA memberships, is women who have young children and then come. But there's a number of reasons. I don't like to dwell on the spiritual connection. I think that's important, and to some other people I think it's important. We are, regardless or your religious background or feelings, I think... I know in the Bible it says we are charged as stewards and the Amish take that very seriously; I take that seriously, not so much from the Christian perspective. I think in any religion we are charged to be stewards of the planet.

BM: That plays back into what you were talking about. You mentioned sustainable agriculture earlier. The term sustainable may not be known by, or understood by many people as far as relation to CSAs goes and organic farming, in general. Sustainable farming—what does that mean to you and how does that play into what you do here?

JM: Well, there's a number of definitions of sustainability. I think if you were to put it in financial terms it's living off the interest and not the capital. So that, in agricultural terms, you would say “don't eat your seed corn,” as simply as that.

BM: Are there types of farming that are not sustainable vs. those that are sustainable? Is there an argument that's going on now between different types of farming where that would come into play at all?

JM: I'm hoping it's not an argument. I'd like to see it as a cooperation and an understanding of the different models. But just by the definition of the word sustainable if something is considered unsustainable, certainly we have to move away from that. To sustain, to maintain, as an ongoing process we have to move toward sustainability, in all that we do.

BM: Would it have to do with crop choices, perhaps? Maybe there's certain crops that we grow that we shouldn't be because more energy goes into producing them than we should get out when we do get it out?

JM: I wouldn't have facts and figures to back that up, but things like genetically modified foods; to me that's not only against the laws of nature—it's contrary to the laws of nature in my mind—but it's also inherently unsustainable.

BM: You had some qualms with the scientific background of where agricultural has been taken with that. Is that what's you're trying to get at there?

JM: Well, to differentiate it from unsustainable farming from sustainable farming, a crop that produces its own seed that is then viable for a future crop, that would fit into a sustainable vision for agriculture. Whereas, a crop that is genetically modified, the seed won't perform true to type, that, long-term, is not a sustainable practice.

BM: Organic farming. You have decided not be officially certified by the government as an organic farmer. And I know you've got some qualms about how they do that. Can you explain a little bit about what your problems are with the process and why you decided to opt out of it?

JM: Well, originally my first thought on organic certification is I felt like I couldn't understand why organic farmers needed to be regulated because we're not the ones that are trying to kill you. And that, again, could be very harsh, a harsh thing. But farmers who are using toxic chemicals are not as carefully regulated as farmers who are not using toxic chemicals. And that was my original opposition back in the early '90s when it first started to develop a certification program. My business, Silver Seed Greenhouses, was certified, and that was absolutely necessary from a marketing perspective because I couldn't sell plants anywhere without having that certification because certified organic growers had to have certified organic transplants, so that business was certified.

But in growing for the CSA, or starting the CSA in 2001 when we did, that's a direct marketing situation. I come face-to-face with all the people to buy my food. So this is what's come to be called “face certification”; meaning that you know me, I know you, we have a relationship that you understand that I will do the very best I can to grow the safest food possible for you. So to bring in a whole regulation agency, a bureaucracy, there's no reason for that third party to be there and that additional expense. So in this situation it's unnecessary.

BM: Well, there is an argument, I guess, or at least a point of view or a thought process, that says the organic certification push that went through like you said, 10 or 15 years ago, was for the big farmers, the commercial farmers, to be able to certify themselves organic as where the smaller farmers were probably organic to begin with, and that may be something that was pushed against because the organic was seen as a small farm operation vs. a big farm operation. Is there anything to that at all?

JM: Well, this would be on my opinion page, I guess. I think that as the certification... actually, when the USDA decided to become like an umbrella to the NOP, the National Organic Program, when it became the umbrella to smaller certifying agencies—and that the smaller certifying agencies had to comply with the standards established by the USDA—when it took on that larger scope I felt that that was designed to enable corporate farms to enter into the marketplace and mass market organic foods. And while I don't think that's a bad thing that it's now available in supermarkets, it's good in some ways, but corporate agriculture being strictly driven by the profit, by the bottom line, I suspected that there would be efforts made by corporations to dilute the standards and so I was concerned about that. And I also feel that the corporate business model is very destructive of agriculture, on the conventional side and I didn't want to see the same business model applied to organic farming.

BM: You don't seen yourself changing your mind in the future and trying to get yourself certified?

JM: Not likely.

BM: Do other farmers on the Shore hold your point of view, that you know of?

JM: Yeah, there are some. The organic certification, I think, for a person to go into a supermarket and see that USDA Certified Organic label on whatever it is they're purchasing, I think that's that person's best guarantee that food is what it says it is, it's safe. I would sooner see that person contact a local farmer and get that from a local farmer and with the face certification that I described before.

BM: Do you think that CSAs should be involved in any kind of experiments at all? There's always experiments going on in agriculture of one kind or another, and usually they are research facilities. But should CSAs be in the business of that, or let that go ahead and be...?

JM: Well, I don't know about being in the business of that. I think there's opportunities for research and we can have research funded. Any farm should be doing some level of research on everything they do every year, whether it's variety selection, or a new crop you've never tried before, or a different market. That sort of thing should be implemented in every farm plan, every year. I think it's important to do—farmers who are able—to do research on farms, to have it funded by SARE, Sustainable Agriculture Research and Education; I know they've funded some excellent projects. The Organic Farming Research Foundation in California, they've funded some excellent projects. And I think every farm should, as it matures and it recognizes areas of research needed, should be involved in that.

That's how organic farmers gained knowledge from each other for many, many years. That's another point I would make about my opposition to organic certification, is that for so many years organic gardeners and farmers shared information and we still do. There are conferences all over the country that are designed just to do that. And that's how we've learned from each other. Whereas, under the strict guidelines of organic certification, if I get one of those eureka moments in my life and come up with some idea I'd like to try on the farm, I would run it by my peer group rather than have to submit it to review by certifiers and wait two years for them to say, “well, yeah, go ahead and try that.” My peer group—I hold them in higher regard.

BM: What is the social impact that you've found of CSAs, the people who come here to pick up their food, to work on the farm itself? Do kids come and participate as well, whole families? How does that work?

JM: Yeah, we have a group of members that, probably, that's one of the major reasons that they wanted to join the CSA is to be able to come to a farm and spend the day and help out, volunteer; helping out with either harvesting or mulching, transplanting, some of the big projects that we have. Kids—I love having kids come to the farm. They're exciting, and they get excited, and just to watch children pull carrots out of the ground is worth anybody's time.

BM: Is that one of the draws, to bring the kids here? Not just the food, to be able to bring the kids?

JM: Yeah, I think parents like to bring their kids and have their kids develop a stronger understanding of how food is grown and where it is. It can be interesting from a farmer's perspective when people find out that turnips grow underground and strawberries don't grow on trees, there's not a box of cereal hanging off that tree, either.

BM: Do you have... I think you have a provision whereby some people can trade in some work on the form for some of the cost of their yearly subscription, is that right?

JM: Yeah, we have reduced price on the share cost for participation on the farm and we also have some folks we offer what we call the picker's perk, where people wouldn't necessarily want to buy a whole share because they know they couldn't use it and maybe they can't find somebody to split a share with and in some cases they're retired, they have time to spend on the farm, so we just tell them, “Come down and help out whenever you can and then take home whatever you want.” And I've never seen that abused where somebody loaded their trunk up with 80 pounds of vegetables, so it works out.

BM: Do people donate food, too, to food banks and that sort of thing?

JM: Anything that doesn't get sold or distrusted through the CSA we get to food banks. We also have a group in Salisbury, they're called the Peer Connection Team. They are part of the Go Getters organization. They've had some sort of trouble with drugs or alcohol and they are recovering from that and they live in a group home. They travel and do everything together. And we got in touch with them and asked them if they'd like to help us with distribution at our largest distribution site, and that's part of some community involvement for them, and they love it. It's a great group of mostly young people and they love coming out. The members enjoy interacting with them, they like interacting with the members, and they help distribute the shares to our largest site. I tell them that we have members that forget to pickup or don't pick up or can't pick up, or don't what this, or don't want that. Anything that's left at the end of the day, I tell the folks with the Peer Connection Team, just, “Whatever you want, take it home.” So, we do that with them. And then we've been dropping off anything that's left at the end of the market or anything like that, gets to food banks or shelters.

BM: So, to close up here, what do you expect for this coming season? What are you going to be growing, and...?

JM: Great things.

BM: Great things?

JM: That's all a farmer can ever say.

BM: How long before you actually start planting for this year.

JM: Well, it never really stops. It'll start to get heavy... It'll start up really seriously the beginning of February. And we start with sewing seeds in the greenhouse for transplants, and that starts the beginning of February, and the greenhouse is the busiest place on the farm until, I'd say, mid-April when we really get serious in the field and in the gardens, but the passive solar greenhouse that we grow in to extend the season with, there's stuff in there now. And that's just about always going. That'll get serious in there... we'll start putting stuff in there in the end of February.

BM: Wow. It's almost a year-round operation, or is a year-round operation.

JM: It pretty much is. I think that's one of the misconceptions people have of farmers, that we have four or five months off in the wintertime. There's never really time off. If you make your living in your back yard, it's always there. But the pace slows down and planning is huge. I'm a stickler for that. I think that I like to have a good plan, not that it's written in stone, but I like to have a good plan done in January and early part of February so that when we hit the ground, we hit the ground running and we don't have to stop and think about what's next. I think that's where young farmers make one of their biggest mistakes, is not having a good plan in place when they get started.

BM: Well, I want to thank you again for your time and I appreciate it.

JM: Sure

BM: This Brian Magee for Global Public Media.